I think 24 is too few.... but then again 616 is tooo many. How about starting at a district must be k-12 and have at least 5000 students to qualify for state aid or be forced to merge if they want state aid. They may opt out of state aid to stay small... ie. Bayhead K-8, Lavallette K-8, etc.

If the city of New York can manage that many students under 1 school board, NJ can do it by county.

So, why are we creating all these new school districts? Every charter school that opens is treated as its own district by the BOE, is required to have all its board members go through the same procedures as other school board members, is required to hire an additional school board administrator, etc. How can the same people who think its crazy to have 600 districts be in favor of creating more?

Crickets.... Don't bother asking these tea party, school choice folks to consistent!

I WENT TO THIS CONFERENCE AND ALL I CAN SAY IS: WHAT A BUNCH OF QUACKS!?!#!?!

That's like saying the government FBI monopoly must end. We need Walmart run FBIs, oh yeah, that should work. Never. There is no educational monopoly, there are religious schools and all kinds of private schools that have been around forever. So stop lying, Monk.

to Joe R: School choice is not about vouchers for private schools, it's about changing the funding formula to a Per/Child Tuition Allowance used by ALL schools. It's not about blaming teachers, who are the most mission critical of all education resources.
.
Utilizing a transferable PER/CHILD TUITION ALLOWANCE funding method for all school, where the allowance schedules and funding come from state, verses municipal level coffers has many advantages.
.
1) We can CUT PROPERTY TAX IN HALF. Why should low income folk in any town, abbot district or otherwise, bear an unfair burden of educating children. Redistributing $ from the POOR in one town to the POOR in another is not fair. State income based funding yields relief for the low income property owners and the rich pay a bit more.
2) We reduce the out-flight of residents fleeing NJ (#1 in the country) which is devastating to our economy.
3) We negate the 2% cap on district budgets, shifting the cap to the tuition allowance schedule, state wide. Now we've PUBLIC schools dying out there as their enrollment increases but the cap blocks needed funding. Other schools are loosing enrollment, yet their tax payers don't seen reductions on a per/child basis.
.
There are more benefits, but your arguments about Choice being anti-tercher are ridiculous. Of course there are failed efforts, always will be, public or private. A tuition allowance funding method causes failed schools to close, as they should.

Joe R: You are being silly. There is a huge difference between law enforcement and delivering a PRODUCT. Education is a product. It can be delivered to the customer in many different ways. Books, movies, audio tapes, interactive personal delivery <teachers>, web, you name it. But it is JUST a product, bought and sold.
And each customer (the parent/child) has the RIGHT to choose which product type they want.
.
There are many ways to be educated. The apprentice system happens to be the best for any trade. Tried and true over the centuries, yet we, in our infinite arrogance somewhere along the line decided "Oh, children shouldn't work". Hence, we lost the work ethic in our culture. Now, how dumb was THAT? Eh?
.
Keeping our kids locked up in the 1950's style school boxes is so passe. It's high time we reengineered the entire product delivery methodology to ensure we have all types of education for all types of children. Apprentice education for trades, college for scientists, internships for office workers, etc...
.
There is ALWAYS a better way. You can ALWAYS improve on things. Your resistance (and the NJEA's) is all about your personal fear of change. You just can't break our of your comfort zone, dude.. You feel threatened. A shrink can help ya with that. <g>

NJ schools are at the top nationally and have been there for a long time.

Yea, and everybody else is tied for second. We pay a lot of money for that distinction and it's really not that hard to achieve when the top is so low.

So, why are we creating all these new school districts? Every charter school that opens is treated as its own district by the BOE, is required to have all its board members go through the same procedures as other school board members, is required to hire an additional school board administrator, etc. How can the same people who think its crazy to have 600 districts be in favor of creating more?

There is corruption, bribery, scandals, scams, cheating and even political nonsense in charter schools. But shh, we're not supposed to mention that.

The only reason corruption exists in any district, charter or traditional, is because of apathy and voters who pay no attention and do not take their responsibility as citizens seriously.

Joe R...Everyone knows there is corruption, bribery, scandals, scams and cheating and even political nonsense everywhere. Pretty much everything is...but we end some of it now by giving choices...All those schools who are doing what is right... will still be standing, all those who are not... I can promise you....will not. It is a start. Just like anything else...If you go out to dinner and continue to get a bad meal I doubt you are going to keep on going back. Right now, there is not enough choices.

Oh please, The Cartel is poor propaganda and garbage. From Bruce Baker: The problem is that most of Bowdon's "shocking statistics" range from gross misrepresentations to outright foolish misunderstandings. As a professor of school finance who lives every day in national and state databases on school funding and student outcomes and who has advised many national organizations on the development of indicator systems for comparing schools/districts and states, Bowdon's presentation of "shocking statistics" is quite honestly the most offensive, absurd and amateur presentation I have ever witnessed - regardless of political angle.

Camden is one of the most poor and crime ridden cities in the nation and you're beating up on the teachers and unions? Teachers and unions are not responsible for the crime, gangs and drugs in that city. NJ schools are always in the top tier of schools nationally by any measure. There are charter school scandals: CAMDEN — A security worker charged with assaulting a special-needs student in April has faced repeated allegations that he manhandled youngsters at D.U.E. Season Charter School, the school founded and led by his mother.
Lawrence Carpenter’s alleged actions at the K-8 school came despite a history of complaints from parents, students and staff to his mother, Principal Doris Carpenter, a Courier-Post investigation shows.

Charters schools that are closed for fiscal problems and debt rarely repay their districts, also leaving vendors and staff members unpaid. Charter school funds that are misused or stolen are rarely recovered.

Jode R: Who is beating on teachers? Teachers are just as trapped in the failing system as the children are. Teachers and children need to be freed TOGETHER to initiate that 21 century education system we need.
.
Stop with the "blame the teachers" crap dude. The funding mess is not the teachers fault it's the fault of those who fear change, regardless of who they might be.

Agreed...It is disgusting. Education has become a true scam on so many levels. The parents should have a choice were to send their kids, end of story. You should be able to move your school out of any school and go to another. Put in a voucher system, let the parents decide if they want to keep their kid. Some schools might not be a good fit for their kid...end all the B.S.

Really? Vouchers have been an abysmal failure in other states. All it resulted in was a bunch of voucher mills popping all over the place, which failed kids, and then overburdened the publics when the kids went back to public schools in droves and the money stayed with the mills.

Anyway, do you want to live with a bunch of brainwashed adult who grew up learning creationism instead of science?

How many parents can home school? Will you homeschool K-12? In so many households both parents have to work to make ends meet especially in this recession.

Joe R- I do not use K-12 as it is a state run program I use a variety of sources including online teachers, courses and instruction. Both my husband and I work full time in order to be able to pay our bills and taxes living here in NJ. Schooling does not have to be done 8 am - 3 pm we have late afternoons, weekends and days off to school. My 8 year old son who would be in 3rd grade in public school is working on a 4th-5th grade level. He also is very independent and works on subjects alone. The homeschool community has programs, classes and gym class which he also attends with his friends. Our sacrifice to school him at home is worth it. My older children were able to get into top universities on academic scholarships. We have taken our children's education into our own hands and it has paid off. Home schooling is not as hard as people assume and you don't have to be trained as a teacher to teach them. Thankfully there are many resources available these days to families.

Joe R: You are looking at the problem like it's an all or nothing equation. It's not. Look at Sweden, they have national school choice. Less than 20% of parents choose alternatives to the public schools.
.
The Jersey public school system is in no danger from school choice. The reverse is true. Public schools will significantly BENEFIT from a per/child tuition allowance funding model.
.
Also, when the social support funds are managed out of the Health & Human Services budget, verses the Education budget MORE money will be available, and better managed, then attempting to call things like food programs part of education.
.
Food is food, it's NOT education and should NOT come out of the education budget who's funds should go to TEACHERS...
.
THINK... think deeply, if you want TEACHERS to thrive, THEY need alternative opportunities to excell, as do children. Any program that does not benefit teachers will not benefit children.
.
We've thought of that, dude. We school choice folk also happen to have teachers in our ranks, and daughters <like mine> who have dreams blocked by current policy. For example. My daughter wants to open a school for teen-age parents. A place they can be while pregnant, and bring their baby to school after delivery.
.
A place they can learn to be Mom's and Dad's while getting HS diploma. With transferable funding schools like that can become a reality. Who benefits? TEACHERS and STUDENTS!

This is nonsense. To propose that all parents be responsible for schooling their children is no less ridiculous than expecting them to perform surgery on their kids as well.

Are you responsible for ensuring your children's medical well-being? Absolutely! Are you responsible for performing open heart surgery on them yourself? Obviously not. Some things are meant to be left to professionals and people who have atleast met certain levels of training and certification in those areas.

We all have to live with the adults the children you are home schooling will turn out to be.

@ jane doe: this is an amazingly ignorant statement. Comparing elementary school math with open heart surgery is just plain silly. And last time I check (and at least for a little while longer) people and privately contracted insurance companies pay for heart surgery, whereas many people who do not use the schools pay for other children to go to school. While I am sure they are out there, I have never met an ill prepared homeschooler.

Yates, you have no way of proving that because NJ collects no data on home-schooled children. I appreciate your opinion bu it is purely that. Also, I'll give you that many people could teach their children elementary math (though many could not), but at some point whether it be junior high or high school that argument doesn't hold up anymore.

Jane Doe: You are under the misperception that the parent of home schooled children is also the teacher of everything. That is not the case. There is a whole network of teachers who are paid by home schooling parents to deliver education in topics, and social activities.
.
A child's TUITION ALLOWANCE should be available for these parents to use to PAY TEACHERS they choose.
.
Home schooling is not about parents being teachers, it's about parents CHOOSING the teachers who teach their child and NOT having their child exposed to the corruption of the 1950's Big Box Schools.
.
It's about parents choosing the curriculum and environment that best fits their child's needs.
.
Some teachers are down right stupid. My daughters 8th grade english teacher made them NOT use computers for their papers because she just knew that all computers would blow up and we be back to pencil and paper after Y2K.
.
I had to go see that for myself. I didn't believe my daughter... should have.. like WOW.. pretty dense. Teachers are not saints, nor are parents. We get a mix of saints, sinners, and the more normally competent folk.
.
The point is the parent is THE deciding factor over how their child is raised, not government. The child's public funding belongs to the child, not any one school or district.

Nora, and those services and providers are unregulated and inefficient. No thanks! Have you looked at K12, the largest provider of such services?

Jane Doe: I'm sure some providers are sub-standard, just like in any other product line you have quality and trash. If a parent does not get quality services then they go shopping.. Just like you do for shoes. (grin)
.
Should we close all shoe stores because some have substandard product and give lousy services? Nope.. we close the bad ones by removing our business. DUH.

@jane doe: the construction of apple phones and dell computers are unregulated. holy moly; that must mean they are going to fall apart as soon as we buy them. They must also be terribly inefficient. Government has failed at pretty much everything it tries to do. Why would the school experiment be any different?

Yates, I am not paying for your apple phone nor dell computer; nor do I feel I should as it is not part of the common good.

Jane doe, you statements is ridiculous....BTW...There has not been many administrators or teachers that I would considered... that they act professional. Most of them are lying snakes that throw each other under the bus that could barely teach. Most teachers that I know are a complete mess who can't even balance a check book or their lives. Sure I want all them teaching my children. My children has not learn a thing in public grammar school. It was a waste of time. Matter of fact they new most of what they were teaching, it was boring, anything they did not know they taught themselves. I think 11th by 11th grade they learned a little and was a little challenged. Even then it took them 2 months to teach something they learned from the teachers in a week but then they drag it on and on for all the kids that most likely shouldn't even be in that class.

Really, your lack of grammar skills and poor use of the English language proves my point. I'm glad that you opted to send your children to school instead of teaching them yourself.

Jane Doe, Get off your high horse. I am not writing an essay, it is a blog. I was in a rush and had a few typos. Lastly, I blame all the lazy teachers for my lack of grammar and writing skills and proper english. This is the reason why the public school needs changes. They need them now...I am sick of all the teachers excuses. They are more worried about their self centered attitudes how great they think of themselves. They promote their own B.S. that most can see right through.

Parents already have options.They can send their kids to the schools in their distict.They can move into a district where they feel the schools are better.The can select a private or parochial school and pay the tuition.Ot they can home school.

MaryLou: No they don't all have options. There is only ONE high school in our district. What kind of option is that? The poor and low income parents can NOT send their child to private school... that option is blocked because they can't afford the tuition out of pocket. WHEN a per/child tuition allowance funding model is in place, THEN the poor will have access to private schools.
.
NOW WE DISCRIMINATE AGAINST THE POOR. The result is their children are denied the opportunity to escape the cycle of poverty. Where is that right?

Nora, there are many, many forms of school choice available in NJ. It doesn't seem you have done your homework. What about inter-district school choice?

Nora,my husband worked with a man who lived in Newark.He and his family pooled their resources so that all of the kids in their family could go to good Catholic schools,All of the extended family lived in the same neighborhood and chose not to move to the 'burbs.ZThe family chose the schools,but,as with all non-public schools,the school had to choose the students,too!

Mary Lou: I'm well aware of inter-district school choice. If you look at the event agenda you will see we have Bob Garguilo, NJ Interdistrict Public School Choice Program speaking.
.
It's the FUNDING MODEL that needs changing. A Per/Child Tuition Allowance would be how inter-district transfers would be funded.

marylou.. it's nice that family HAS the resources to pool. The majority of the poor do not. I went in debt to ensure my child was in the school of my choice. That would not have happened if I could have used her TUITION ALLOWANCE to pay the school fees.
.
Even then, I was lucky I had good credit. The ghetto poor don't have that. Who's going to lend them money for their kids when they've no hope of paying it back?
.
The ONLY way a family breaks out of the cycle of poverty is for their children to get a good education and be successful in making a living. My family is all immigrants who came with NOTHING, the good education let our families next generation make a good living.
.
Why do you resist a stable and equitable funding methodology? It is sensible and fair. What exactly do you object TO?

Nora, I would object to any form of school choice that exacerbates inequality, increases segregation by race, religion, or ability, uses tax dollars to promote any religion or political ideology, has been proven not to work in other states, or disenfranchises voters. To that point, I oppose school vouchers and charter schools in their current form in NJ.

Jane, with a statement like that you must certainly object to the current public school system in NJ which segregates rich kids from poor kids. No?

Mind if i steal from you: Well said...
.
Mary Lou said " Nora, I would object to any form of school choice that exacerbates inequality, increases segregation by race, religion, or ability, uses tax dollars to promote any religion or political ideology, has been proven not to work in other states, or disenfranchises voters. To that point, I oppose school vouchers and charter schools in their current form in NJ."
.
Wow... current public school foster segregation... oops. Sounds like racial discrimination to me. They promote a specific political ideology. The promote a particular religion (atheism). Voters are already disenfranchised even when they vote down budgets the schools get what they want.
.
Mary Lou: I think that is called being hoisted on your on petard. LOL
.
As for separating children by ability. Do you really think we can train our best and brightest in the same room with those mentally challenged, or emotionally unstable? Do you really think that is good for EITHER group of children?
.
Amazing you can make the case for school choice, yet still say you are against it.

Nora, my school district does none of the things you ascribe to it. It is absolutely possible to teach comparative religion without promoting any religion including atheism. Public schools do not segregate. Zip codes do though, and Inter-district school choice and housing reform can fix that.

Mind if I, that has nothing to do with schools or districts - it has to do with housing laws. Make it possible for poor families to live in affluent neighborhoods and that won't be a problem.

Remember school choice was originally created for Southern white folks to avoid integration.

Jane Doe: Like it now, you are singing MY song. (grin) A transferable tuition allowance, funded at state level is HOW WE MAKE IT POSSIBLE for the poor to live in affluent zip codes.
.
They can't now because of the PROPERTY TAXES. No one who makes $20K/year can pay $20K in property taxes.
.
Look at this differently... look at the totality of discriminatory practices, not just through one small window. Back up to 20,000 feet and perceive the PATTERNS. Property tax is, on average 1/2 of the total tax bill.
.
When rich school districts ALLOW their schools to have rich fat budgets for all manner of extraneous needs the do so to crank up taxes. THAT is what makes housing unaffordable for low income. Fund per/child tuition allowances for PUBLIC schools (and others) at state level, and you open up those zip codes.

Nora,how many students from Abbott districts would Holmdel,Rumson,or Middletown be willing to accept?I doubt that the parents in those successful disticts would be very happy if they did.People with children often research a school district before moving there.

Mary Lou: Now that's the point, isn't it. Rich towns engage in exclusivity policies that prevent others from accessing the PUBLIC resources all in the state contribute to.
.
People who feel that just because someone is poor they are also stupid, slovenly, misbehaved and can't LEARN otherwise are the ones who prevent these kids from having the OPPORTUNITY to learn otherwise.
.
That's what breaking the cycle of poverty is all about. Kids having friends in school from every walk of life is advantageous for future networking when as adults they look for jobs, or customers, or partners.
.
People in wealthy towns that violently object can pull their kids out of that school and go find one they approve of. Their Choice..
.
You are arguing my POV again. (grin)

Noras Tea Party, They already discriminate against the poor in the public schools. They are not even looking in any of the kids direction who are poor.

Nora,it has nothing to do with ithe income of the parents.It's about the type of students most of these kids are! If their parents don't care about learning and education,neither will the kids.Why woyld any successful district want to take kids who would bring down their numbers?

Are you saying that the Abbott Schools are GOOD and nothing should be done about their failures? Why does an Abbott school get more money per student to deliver less results?

Anyone who believes the parents of Abbott districts can send their kids elsewhere is uninformed. They are stuck in the system. Choice means they money spent per child follows the child.

Joe - If a Charter opens and 200 kids leave, the money follows. The school can then downsize to offset the costs. Obviously, Charters provide competition and if students move, it means the parents have decided the school they currently have fails!

If its about education, then competition is needed and the NJEA needs to go away. Babs and Giordano can find other work for their 1%er paychecks

Abbott school student fail the schools,not the other way around.And I do know of concerned parents who live in Abbot districts who sent their kids to Catholic schools.Any school that can choose it'd students and expel those who do not perform or who become discipline problems is going to be more successful than those who must accept and keep all students.

Joe R: If the residents of a community do not approve of a charter, then they don't need to send their kids there. No students = no school. BUT, as long as they line up around the block to get their kids into Charters, then they HAVE VOTED... with their feet, their hearts, and their most precious of all things... their children.
.
OTHER residents, who might not have kids, or like their public school really don't have any right to RESTRICT the options of their neighbors. The funding belongs to the CHILD. We pay taxes, willingly to give to the CHILD for the CHILDS advantage, not power brokers, or administrative fiefdoms.

Nora, if these schools truly had students lining up around the corner, they would have no reason to fear a referendum. In most cases' charter school waiting lists are inflated and falsified. There is no oversight of them whatsoever.How many charter schools claim to have waiting lists in the Spring and then can't even fill their classrooms on the first day of school?

Jane Doe: Tell that to the child in tears because she didn't get a seat in the lottery. A LOTTERY FOR CHILDREN"S FUTURE????? Now that is obscenely unfair. EVERY child that wants to be elsewhere should be allowed & funded to BE elsewhere.
.
The quality of a public school is often NOT the reason a child fails to thrive. In excellent schools you have miserable children, bullied, left behind, ignored in the crowd, needs not met.
.
REGARDLESS of the quality of a school, if a child fails to thrive they need a different environment, as obviously the current one is not working for them.
.
Tell me JANE DOE... why to you object to children being ALLOWED to seek happiness and success?

Nora, then let's expand Inter District School Choice. There is no reason school choice can't be delivered without vouchers and charter schools.

And, please give the propaganda a rest. This is as low as those E3 folks who bring bus loads of kids into the legislature during school days as props, and half of those kids have no idea why they are even there.

Donkey Tales, there's no such thing as an Abbott District anymore. Read a newspaper, why don't you?

Jane... we agree with the need to expand inter-district school transfers. But we really must get per/child tuition allowances up and running to address other needs behind JUST funding education. How we tax our people is what creates those rich/poor town disparities. The imbalances are why NJ is #1 in out-flight of residents, voting with feet and leaving.
.
It's also needed to give teachers opportunity OUTSIDE the institutionalized environment. They cannot innovate new ideas bound in the chains of a bureaucratic fiefdom.
.
Teachers need to be free to CHOOSE where they want to teach, in the public union environment, or private sector. Religion has nothing to do with that.

Nora, I could support your tax credit ideas, only so long as they are in used in public schools that are regulated. Its unacceptable for those tax dollars to promote religion or political ideologies. There are way to many people and organizations already using charters and vouchers for this purpose. There is no reason why you can not accomplish your goals using public schools.

Jane Doe: You're getting close. See.. we argue long enough we can find things to agree upon so we move forward. But NOT tax credits.. no no.. This is about how we fund ALL schools and methods of initial taxation, not give backs to a few folk in tax credits.
.
Now it's property tax based... unfair, discriminatory, creating disparity, un-affordable housing, etc. If we use a Per/Child Tuition Allowance method for all schools.. even if we just STARTED with only public schools, that would be a huge advancement.
.
One of the important success criteria is separation of education funding from social support funding. When the Tuition Allowance schedule is created on the State level, the additional support funding schedule will be much easier to separate out of the education budget.
.
This can be done. But until we embrace the concept that we should NOT be charging granny on social security the same as her neighbor, and we get things cranked up (or down) to where they need to be the system won't work.
.
System design is a different skill from education ya know. It's the SYSTEM that is broken, not teachers, not children, not parents.... the SYSTEM of funding always controls the outcomes of an endeavor.

Jane Doe: Providing you with an opportunity for enlightenment is not "propaganda". It's called education (grin). You hold a position and try to defend it with things that are simply not true....
.
Children are NOT equitably funded under current policy.
Taxpayers are not treated fairly by current taxation policy.
Teachers DO NOT have the range of opportunities needed to create excellence.
Parents ARE disenfranchised both as parents and voters from implementing their RIGHT to choose how their child is educated, by having atheism shoved down their throat.
.
It's time ALL children have access to quality education.
It's time our taxpayers were treated fairly.
It's time our teachers were released from the bondage of institutions as well.
.
Tuition Allowance funding at state level is how we achieve what YOU profess to believe in. Our goals are the same, dear. You just refuse to believe there is another way to deliver education, and that's a pretty closed minded POV.

Nora, I've been the furthest thing from closed minded. I've even gone along with your tax/credit idea, so long as they used for public schools. You've given me no reason why they need to go to vouchers mills or charters. The funding model you've provided is a good one, so long as they don't go to private schools or quasi-private charters.

Propaganda is propaganda. It is meant to feed off of emotion and cloud judgement instead of looking at facts. That is exactly what E3 folks do when they ship kids into legislative session that look sad but have no idea why they are there.

Back to basics. Public schools are here to stay. The question is how to finance (and run) them. My take: (1) Abolish local school property taxes - they're regressive and create local overburden. (2) Fund publis schools exclusively thru the State income tax. (3) Allocate the same amount per pupil for all public school students, adjusted for grade-level and individually-documented educational handicaps. (4) Significantly reduce the number of school districts. (5) Offer equal educational opportunity to all public school students - every district offers the same "regular," advanced/Honors/AP and remedial curricula to all students who qualify via objective testing.
Truth-in-posting: I never attended public school, and my children are well past grade-school age. If it's good and noble for me individually to pay for the education of other folks' children, then surely it's gooder and nobler for us as a society to do so.

@Peter Koenig: You are correct that public schools are here to stay. Your solution, however, is wrong. The further you remove the funding form the people who benefit from it, the less accountability and efficiency you will have. Just look at the feds! Public schools should be funded on the lowest possible level. Get the state out of funding education all together. Your solution is naively egalitarian and completely misses the distinction between charity and forced government extortion. Your syllogism is wrong as well. Voluntary contributions by an individual to another person's education would be equal to a number of people (associated as a voluntary group perhaps) contributing to the education of the less fortunate in a given location. Each person should be free to determine what they consider worthy of charity. That is not for you or me to decide. It is their prerogative as a free person. Do you think I should be able to tell you who to contribute your hard earned money to and how much?

Robert Yates: Education funding is NOT redistribution IF it is equitably distributed on a per/child tuition allowance basis.
.
You asked "Why should anyone be forced to pay for the education of someone else's child?'. Well... long answer there, we-the-people acknowledge that our children (all of them) are THE most critical resource American has to ensure a stable future FOR America.
.
Long ago we determined that to create equal opportunity for every child to compete successfully in the American economy, to be able to support themselves and their families, was essential to national stability and national security and the national economy.
.
What's wrong is not THAT we pay taxes to educate children but HOW we levee those taxes and distribute the available funding. Now we use property tax which is is probably the most UNFAIR way to levee taxes. Granny in a housing development on social security pays the same as their neighbor in an identical house who may have two working executives.
.
Is it FAIR to bankrupt granny? No. That's why reasons a state level per/child tuition allowance is needed. AND that social services (food, health aids, etc.) come out of the Health & Human Services budget, not property tax.
.
We need to keep our low-income seniors (and youngsters) in their homes, not drive them out via property tax. Let's CUT PROPERTY TAX IN HALF. It can be done. It should be done. NOW before out-flight kills our economy.

Education funding is redistribution - no matter how you look at it - as long as the person receives more benefits than they pay in taxes, which is almost always the case. Your history is off a bit too. Public education was not nationally prevalent until around the turn of the century. This was when the progressives such as Wilson, Roosevelt, Dewey, Rockefeller and other elitist politicians and rich folk determined it was time to remove freedom and started dictating things from the top down. Isn't it funny too that the Rockefellers could have privately funded the education of every less fortunate child in America until kingdom come. Instead they advanced the idea of socialized education. Coincidentally, this is also when the country began its long slow decent into moral and financial bankruptcy.

No, Robert, it's NOT redistribution. Welfare is redistribution, take my $ and give it to someone else for personal maintenance needs needs. I don't object to that IF the welfare rules include working for it. Welfare folk could do public services, staff day cares, pick up trash INSTEAD of paying public union folk to do it...
.
School funding is a public investment in the future of America. We came to the public conclusion we ALL suffer when ALL children don't have equal access to a good basic education.
.
Is it the CHILD's fault their parents are poor? Are we going to punish the child if the parent is less than successful? Where is that right?
,
Children are precious. Genius exist regardless of social or economic strata. The cure for cancer can exist in a poor child's mental potential. Are we going to deny OURSELVES access and development of the best minds to take on our social, economic, and political challenges?
.
Those of you who would deny a child their future confuse the heck out of me. Where is your compassion? Where is your logic? Where the heck is your understanding of the relationships between funding and fraud? You have ZERO leg to stand on when it comes to getting these children out of ENSLAVEMENT TO POVERTY.
.
This IS the Civil Rights issue of our age and it's high time we freed the slaves of ignorance and opened the door to prosperity for THEM.

@Peter Koenig: I already replied to this but the patch is censoring it for some reason. I'll try again. If public education is a given: 1. Local taxes should be the only thing that funds public schools with private charity making up any short falls. The less localized the funding, the less efficiency, accountability and humanity there will be. 2. State funding of education automatically includes funding from people that have no skin in the game so to speak. This will breed contempt and rightfully so. People should never be forced to pay for a service they do not receive. 3. This requires a level of uniformity that will never be obtained. 4. Agreed. 5. ditto from #3. With respect to your last sentence, you are ignoring the important difference between coercive taxes and voluntary contributions. They both may have the same end; i.e. education for all, but only one is a moral route to take. Forcing people in Rumson to pay for the education of people in Long Branch is coercive and inimical to freedom. Voluntary trusts or nonprofits set up by the people in Rumson for the benefit of the people in Long Branch is noble and noteworthy. The end is important but so is the means, though Machiavelli would disagree with me.

@Nora: Why do you think that the government is the only entity that can provide for the less fortunate? Private charity has a tremendous historical record of assisting the poor. I believe education for all is a wonderful goal and I work toward it daily. But I can not advance a position that forces my neighbor to give me money for something he may or may not endorse. I personally believe that the curriculum in public schools is terribly deficit (and therefore will never use them), yet I am forced to contribute toward these schools nonetheless. Because of this coercion, I do not have the money to educate my children the way I see fit, so I a forced to seek charity for my own children's education. Isn't there something wrong with this picture? Does freedom reign or not?

Nora, a more holistic approach would be Fair Share housing reform so that zip codes are not barriers. Then folks like you could stop using the achievement gap to justify putting public dollars into private hands unaccountable to voters.

@Nora & jane doe: you are assuming that everyone agrees with your charitable goals and therefore you seem happy to coerce them (via the arm of the government) into contributing. I am not prepared to violate the freedom of these people nor am I prepared to grant you your false assumption that the government holds a monopoly on virtuous action and judgement. You are willing to use coercive means which sacrifices freedom to achieve your goal. I want to persuade others that this is a noble goal, which is worthy of their consideration, money and good will. You must have a fairly low opinion of most people and high opinion of your ability to make judgments for others.

Robert: You are misrepresenting my position. I did not say gov't "holds a monopoly on virtuous action and judgement". Nor did I say philanthropic endeavors are not worth wile. Neither method meets all needs.
.
Philanthropy plays a role, but unfortunately contributions from that source are insufficient to foot the bill. There are things we identify as "common good" that we authorize our elected representatives to tax us for. There always will be. No sense arguing basic reality.
.
Negating taxation intoto is not a realistic POV. Balancing taxation fairly on all, and ensuring distribution is equitable is where we need to focus our attention.

Robert: One by one.
,
1. Local taxes should NOT fund public education as not all towns are created equal, therefore local funding automatically institutes wealth discrimination on the children.
.
2. State funding of education automatically includes funding from people that ALL have skin in the game. It's to every resident's advantage that we raise self sufficient children that do NOT become government dependent. It reduces the tax burden on everyone.
.
3. This requires a level of uniformity that IS EASILY obtained. It's called a Tuition Allowance Schedule. DUH Not even calculus level complicated (grin).
.
5. Cohesive taxes. Well, now, did you really think that folk will GIVE ENOUGH to cover all the collective needs of a community. Dream on.. Taxes are a necessary evil, and good. But they must be done right and not bankrupt our low income neighbors or be too onerous on the well to do that it motivates them to move.
.
Balance, my friend, balance. We are out of balance. When Tuition Allowance are funded by Income tax, then we achieve balance, where each pays what they can from what they earn and those with more give more. (or consumption sales tax, those who spend more pay more).

@Robert Yates, you are100% correct. We as Americans exist in an economy of Governent and a society of takers. Unsustainable? Not until the printing press breaks down.

Joe R: Charter schools, like any other type of entity will fall somewhere on the Bell Curve.. You have a few that excell on a stellar level, a few that fail abysmally, and the rest will fall on the curve somewhere.
.
No one school is illustrative of the whole network. That's pretty silly to think that way. Schools are run by HUMANS, and humans are not perfect. No one expects perfect (if they are wise).
.
We EXPECT some charters to fail. That's really the whole point, that schools should fail and be closed if they are not doing a good job. When you have the transferable per/child tuition allowance it's intended to MAKE schools fail that loose students due to their own incompetency. That frees the funding for new schools to open that will do a better job..
.
It's called COMPETITION.. Duh. Customer choice is what drives economic success. Companies that don't perform, or have substandard products go blub-blub into the waste-bin of history. We need schools to function at their peak of performance. Competition is the whip that drives them to do so. No competition = no whip = substandard school continue to exist = children continue to suffer because of them.

Nora, not under this particular commissioner. When charter schools can not fill their classrooms, he just allows charters to take students from 3 and four counties away. There will always be someone desperate enough within a 50 mile radius to fill that seat - it is no demonstration of whether that charter is "substandard" or not.

Jane Doe: We're talking policy here. Commissioners do not create policy, they initiate policy created by our elected officials.
.
As for kids being ALLOWED in charters from other districts, children should be ALLOWED in any charter regardless of where they live. They should neither be restricted by school OR district, but free to shop the entire state if they want to.

....and Germany has been a great model of freedom and liberty over the last century. Homeschooling is indeed a viable solution for many people. It is impossible to say what exact percentage could pull this off, but it is certainly substantial. i know people who owuld almost certainly be considered poor, who pull this off very nicely. It all depends on your financial priorities. For some people vacation and coach purses trump paying for their kids education. Heck, how many families in NJ make over $100K and still force other people to educate their children in public schools?

On the vacation and Coach purse thing: One cannot approbate the idea that we should only get what we individually pay for, and then castigate the rich (who pay more taxes) (I hope...) for using the public schools their taxes support. The "free market" model suggests that the rich have a greater right to public education than the poor. (That's absolutely not my view. I reiterate my firm support for free public education for all.)

Home-schooling is a daunting endeavor. It'd require a full-time stay-at-home parent, with sufficient educational background and materials and pedagogical skills, working with the child 30+ hrs/wk and also spending 10 to 15 hrs/wk on prep. Since the parent will only teach each lesson once, rather than multiple times per day and every year as a professional teacher would, there's no leverage from the prep time - each lesson plan is a de novo one-off effort. Add the opportunity costs of no or reduced home-making activities and unemployment as long as any child in household is being home-schooled. Also consider that the home-schooling parent almost certainly will not have the professional qualifications of a teacher - much less those of separate teachers for each subject in the curriculum. Tough for anyone; very tough for poor families. Bless anyone who can do it successfully.

Joe R: Of course home schooling is not for everyone... like DUH.. who ever said it was... you present a straw-man argument... ie: totally invalid.
.
Home schoolers will always be a minuscule % of the whole. But home schoolers have educational expenses. Home schoolers HIRE TEACHERS. One use of a transferable per/child tuition allowance is to allow home schoolers access to THEIR CHILD"S FUNDING, so they can PAY TEACHERS of their choice.
.
Now, that these TEACHERS who support the home-school community are NON-UNION has NJEA's shorts in a knot. BUT.. if you are pro-teacher, then you should support things that broaden the base of opportunity FOR TEACHERS.

@Peter Koenig: First, the free market model does not approve of public education at all. Second, your first paragraph is entirely correct as long as that family pays an equal or greater amount in property and state taxes than they receive in educational benefits. If they receive more benefits than they pay in taxes, then my argument prevails (a I guess this is what I had in mind when I wrote that). Third, your second paragraph is right on. I think you're embellishing the skills required to teach your children elementary school level material, but otherwise you are right. Please note that I am not necessarily saying that individual homeschooling is the best route. What I am saying is that the concept of public schooling is contrary to the idea of voluntary free association and it distorts the true meaning of charity as its funding is coercive by its very nature.

Nora, as a Teapartier you sure don't seem to care about duplication of services or taxation without representation - both of which come with giving credits to home-schoolers. Tax-payers have already paid for teachers available to that family. If they choose not to use it, so be it - but don't go expecting me to pay for more services now just because it isn't what that family would like.

@jane doe: you expect me to pay for service that I do not use or like, so why should you not also be forced to pay for service that you do not use or like? You are caught in a classic contradiction. The only non-coercive solution is the one that I have shared above.

Jane Doe: I can do this all night, there honey. (grin) You make it too easy for me. Tax payers do NOT pay for specific teachers at all. Tax payers chip into a pool to create a "through and efficient system of public education".
.
Now, when the current system is neither through or efficient, that's when the taxpayer is getting hosed. As a Tea Party person, I care very much about fairness to all, taxpayers AND children.
.
Tea Party folk are democrats, republicans, libertarians, independents, etc. We're about BALANCE and fairness, and the constitutionality of our laws. Like any other group, not all folk in Tea Parties think the same on different issues. The common theme is limited government (not NO gov't), support of the free market (which gives us all we have, opportunity & prosperity), and fiscal responsibility.
.
Those are things where no mater what political party you are, you should buy into as it's only common sense, to limit power, be wise with money, and respect the ground rules that made us a FREE COUNTRY in the first place.

OK, JD, we get it, you are a union hater spouting false made-up statistics. If NJ schools are so full of horrible teachers, why do NJ schools perform so well, overall and on average. To judge NJ schools by Camden or other urban centers that are in crisis is biased and ridiculous. 20% based on your experiences?? What a joke, you obviously have an anti-teacher and anti-union bias.. Teachers don't hire themselves, the NJEA does not hire the teachers. Teachers don't evaluate themselves, the NJEA does not evaluate the teachers; that's all up to the principals and administrators.

I'm not going to generalize about the entire NJ.
There are some great school districts and some very bad districts.
Yes... 20% of admin need to go also... whether they be supervisor, principal, etc.
Trust me, I have the stats to back up the claims.
Yes poor hiring practices as well as promotions... no doubt about it. But due to tenure, can't fire them no matter how bad they are as a teacher.
Why do you need tenure???

I would bet the ranking has a strong correlation to socio-economic, education level of parents, etc. But I don't like to compare state to state. I compare school district to school district within the same socio economic rating.

So,let's guess which school districts are "good " and which are "bad." I'd say tha the good ones have students whose parents value education and learning,and the bad ones have parents,for the most part, who don't.That.in a nutshell,is the difference between good and bad districts.The teachers went to the same colleges and universities.

16 principals for TWO HIGH SCHOOLS???? WTF FOR??????

Mary Lou...
Disagree.... too many Alternate Route teachers who can't teach.
Hiring a Theater Arts major to teach 7th grade math... because mommy and daddy work in the district...
Hiring a marketing major who worked as hostess at TGIF to teach basic skills... 40 year old who worked for 5 yrs as a bank teller... how did she get hired... friends with member on BOE.
I can go on and on...

bottom line..

if you are a good teacher... you don't need tenure.
tenure is to protect the bad teacher... so get rid of tenure and schools will improve.

I agree that hiring people who are not qualified is wrong.But,I do believe that some private and parochial schoolsdo the same thing.I know for a fact that a Catholic school in Morris Country had a art teacher who never attended college. I can go on and on,too.

I beg to differ,Good teachers do need tenure.Without tenure,those who do their jobs and advocate for their students could be fired for doing their jobs,if the principal or an administrator disageed with him or her.

JD, in NJ public schools, teachers are required to pass a certain level of proficiency in their subject area. It's the school choice folks who think its okay for kids to be taught by home-schoolers, and parochial school teachers who are not certified. Moreover, its Christie and Cerf who are advocating that charter school teachers who should not even need basic certifications. You've got your facts backwards.

Jane Doe: Get it right please. School Choice people believe it's the home schooling parent's right and responsibility to CHOOSE who teaches what best for their child. My dad had no degrees at all and taught me every form of construction, with the math needed to get it right.
.
Competency is not based on COLLEGE it's based on KNOWLEDGE. Lincoln was self taught, many MANY of the most competent leaders, teachers, industry moguls were self taught.
.
The idea that only those who over-paid through the nose for a liberal arts degree are competent to teach is ridiculous. I've been teaching adults my whole career and didn't need any teaching certificate to do it, just competence in my field, and a willingness to pass on knowledge.
.
I've taught a generation of Boy Scouts the skills needed to get by. Poor city mice didn't know one end of a hammer from the other. Engineering is best taught hands on by letting them build stuff. Every human being has something to teach another.
.
Parents teach children their ABC's and 123's before they hit kindergarten, among many other things. The parent is the first and best teacher. Now, before you say "parents are the problem", go back to the Bell Curve argument.. SOME parents are not so good, some stellar, the rest of us fall somewhere on the curve and do OK.

Joe R...It is obvious that you are a teacher....Let me ask you these few questions? Do you feel that all teachers are equal? I don't! Do you feel all administrators are equal? I don't. Do you feel all children are treated equal in the public school system? I don't. Do you think all coaches in the public school system is treating all public school kids the same. I don't. The school allows the public school to be run by a few politically connected and the elite and everyone else is left in the dust. It is call green back (money) $200,000 and more for a free college education of their choice. That is disgusting in itself because of the greed. It is usually those who can afford to pay for their self. They will do everything in their power to scam how great only some kids are. Most of it lies and in accurate. This is public school corruption at its best. Giving others a free college education that don't deserve it on the backs of other kids they really do.

Joe R&JD...I feel you are both wrong...JD it is more than 20% educators who need to lose their jobs and I am including all the administrators in the schools who clearly are not doing their job...I have a 1/3 rule in how workers perform no matter what your job or the industry you are in. 1/3 is great, 1/3 is just ok and 1/3 is horrible and should be fired. They need to find another job. Possibly they might be good in another profession. There is no room for 1/3 just ok or 1/3 horrible Teachers, Administrators (educators) teaching our public school children in all the public schools. It is not just the abbott districts that have all the problems even though that is what most try to use as a scapegoat. We need to get rid of all these educators and replace them all great teachers. I have come across a lot of lazy educators in my time and they are giving all the great teachers a bad name and its unfair to all of them too. They all get paid the equal same amount regardless if they are good or not. Many on this debate has their own beliefs and opinions. Many of them I happened to agree with and all have valid points on this debate. But common...Let's face the facts...The public school no longer works properly and their needs to be real changes. The way they are funded needs to change. People can no longer afford to stay in their homes is wrong. End of Story!

Joe R: School Choice is not about Bob... regardless of how his name is spelled (grin). It's about the CHILDREN and the TEACHERS. It's about getting out of the 1950's jail-house-school model of the last century and creating a new educational delivery system that meets the needs of THIS century.
.
Change is unsettling. You are obviously afraid of it, as are others. Why don't you express your real fears instead of just the knee-jerk blind resistance to change. Open your mind and resist your fears. Look at the advantages for TEACHERS, the children, the tax payer. You are in at least one of those categories <g>.
.
1) Are you afraid public schools will be harmed? They won't they will benefit from equitable and stable funding.
2) Are you afraid teachers will be harmed? They won't, they benefit from more money available to pay THEM, verses supporting unnecessary bureaucratic overhead.
3) Are you afraid children will be harmed? They won't, most will stay in the good public schools, but others with different needs will have the opportunities currently denied them.
.
So.. WHAT are you afraid of? The only entity that might be harmed in the NJEA's dues collection process when teachers who dream of providing excellence in education open special schools of their own.
.
Come on JOE R: There really is no logical argument to retain the current system of funding ya know. It's pretty indefensible.

Hey Joe R: <b> Why don't you COME TO THE EVENT ON SUNDAY.. </b> Come listen. Then you can talk to Bob and tell him to his face he's just a puff-piece.. (grin).
.
Come and argue your POV with me, and others who support educational opportunities for Teachers and Children, and tax relief for the low income.
.
Come, tell us how we're wrong to want children to excell. Come tell us how we're wrong to want to expand opportunity for teachers. Come tell us how we're really a bunch of haters when we have the welfare of children, teachers, and tax payers in our hearts.
.
AND... if you do come, you will get a HUG, because we are all in this together, regardless of our various POV's. Come... stand up at the microphone and ask your questions of the panel of speakers. I double dog dare ya... (grin)

A Resident: Children are already bussed to private schools. There are kids that live down the shore that go to places like Bishop Eustas near Cherry Hill. They have pick up spots, like shopping centers at shore, parents drop kids off at the bus stop.
.
As time goes by and we get more advanced in creating the 21st century model, that includes cyber-space educational access, there should be less need to buss kids all over.
.
Big box schools are not the best model when it comes to security and health. Contagion of disease, or bad habits (drugs, teen pregnancy, etc.) are fostered when you stuff kids in one big box.
.
Economies of scale (1950's big box environment) is not really the best way to create a safe environment for our children. Violence, bullying, the whole peer pressure thing does not help our kids, it's harmful.
.
It's a pretty standard business failure model to over-centralize. When it happens businesses scale back and decentralize again. The franchise concept succeeds because it is the right mix of centralized shared services, and autonomy of local customer services.
.
We're not totally broken (yet), we've just gone a tad bit too far in the centralized delivery model. Funding should be centralized, delivery should be local with maximum customer choice of product.. (education)

Joe R: What's your point? The statistic that matters in NFP is not how much individual admin staff are paid, but the overall % of the budget that goes to admin. There is a whole world of NFP's out there and standards exist. When an NFP utilizes more than 15% of total revenue for admin, verses delivery of the service. Then it needs to come under review.
.
It's quite easy for states to put protective review standards in place. Simple legislation that says "admin overhead may not exceed 15% of total revenue" would do the trick.
.
When you create systems (which I did for a career), you need to make sure you have security checks and balances written into the design. HUMAN will push to the limits of what is allowed.
.
It's up to the entity creating the system to define the limits.

Joe R: Your illustrations are indicative of failures in the public funding model. Said failures can be corrected by correcting the funding model. Also, remember there will always be those who try to cheat.
.
I can think of quite a few ways to plug systemic control holes. That holes exist is nothing new, they always do when you try new things. That why the business planning cycle includes review & revise in it. Uncommon to get things right first time out of the box.

Joe R: You are beating a dead horse.. Failures are how we LEARN. Failures are how we get better. Look at bridge failures.. the famous one where the wind cause oscillation and it all came crashing down. Engineers fixed the design. That does not mean they eliminated bridges.
.
Look at the ferry disaster in NYC, where life jackets were rotten, life boats chained up, and over a thousand folk died. That caused rules to be established to ensure safety. But we didn't ban ferry boats.
.
Look at the early 20th century theater fire where more died horribly in flames. That caused fire exit lighting and other safety rules. But we didn't close down theaters.
.
Some charters will fail. Some public schools will fail. That only means we need to address the SYSTEM CRITERIA to fix what points of failure exist. It does not mean we close all charters or cease to use them. It means we FIX whatever holes exist.

Didn't you say the local BOE's are the self-serving bureaucrats? Do you not even know the difference between a BOE member and a paid Superintendent?

Are you suggesting that if your town consolidates with another town that you should not be able to elect a board to decide how your tax dollars are spent? If you live in town A, and town A decides to utilize schools in town B, you still need elected representatives of town A to continually access whether to continue sending your tax dollars to town B or somewhere else.

Can you point us to where this exists with excessive paid staff as you suggest?

Yes, that is called a Regional Board of Education. This arrangement exists in some parts of NJ already. Each town has 1 or 2 representatives elected to the board. It doesn't matter where the board is physically located since every town in the region is represented on it. Suppose there are 4 towns in the region, you only need 1 superintendent.

Mind if I, there may be circumstances where it is cheaper to keep four supers (who all have salary caps now) and get rid off all the mid-level management.

Also, I wasn't referring to regional boards. I was referring to the scenario you initially described where there are Boards for town's with no schools. In some of those cases there the town sends all children to anther district, however the town has elected to keep its own elected Board to oversee the interests of town A.

It's hard to discuss this with you when you are speaking such generalizations. I asked you for specifics where a town has its own board and excessive staff with no schools.

Jane, here are three examples, but NJ had at one time 26 such districts:

http://www.state.nj.us/education/counties/Non-ops/Helmetta.pdf
http://www.state.nj.us/education/counties/Non-ops/Branchville.pdf
http://www.state.nj.us/education/counties/Non-ops/Millstone.pdf

Mind if I, did you read these attachments. Helmetta has no paid staff. It has an elected board to oversee how Helmetta tax dollars are spent in Spotswood. They kept on a super only for the transition. What are you even talking about?!

you make great points here. It's funny how some neighborhoods get these mansions for schools while others have the same desks from 30 years ago. all those thinking its the teachers or their unions robbing or creating most of the expenses I think are niave. It is all these administrative costs and jobs handed down the ranks of corruption throughout nj's entire business. If you think private sector wont be or isn't just as corrupt or their administrators won't get paid more and more for less and less as they go, think again.

Mind if I, in nearly every one of these circumstances, either 1) the School Development Authority (a state entity) deemed it necessary to build a new facility, or 2) voters decided through bond referendum to build a facility. I think you are misplacing your blame and anger.

Per/Child Tuition Allowance funding would fix that. The PUBLIC funds would be equalized with a standard schedule (based on age and needs). The only way to end the rich-town, poor-town disparity is to move funding to state level, execution at local level.
.
If rich towns want gold fixtures and fancy turf, they can do private fund raising. One way rich towns keep what they perceive as the "riff-raff" out of their towns is through exorbitant proper taxes.
.
AFFORDABLE HOUSING is not about the cost of a structure, it's about the continuing overhead on the property tax payer. Education funding changes is not JUST about kids and teachers, it's about creating that affordable housing climate for tax-payers as well.

Jane Doe: Voters should not have to perform an independent review of floor plans and specifications for each school project that is constructed to see if the budget is bloated. That is the job of the local BOE. However, when spending the taxpayers money it seems pretty simple to go for the bells and whistles since it's "only" an extra $20 per taxpayer to have the nicest looking school on the planet with every toy imaginable. They are not held accountable. Just because they get voters to approve $30 million to build a school doesn't mean they should have to use every last dime of it. And sadly, most projects end up over budget with many extras tacked onto the bill.

Suppose you got a mortgage pre-approval from the bank to borrow $400,000 to buy a new house. Does that mean you "have to" borrow that entire amount? If you knew that making payments on that size loan would require you to eat peanut butter and jelly everyday with the heat off would you do it? I bet most BOE's would.

FYI: If you review the transition reports Governor Christie got when first elected you'll see the prior administrations left $7 BILLION in debt for the whole school construction fiasco.
.
We have so many empty commercial buildings that could be used with minor retrofitting, it's ridiculous to go build new schools from scratch.

Nora, NJ's School Funding Reform Act already allots dollars based on the number of students and the needs of those students. It's the most equitable system in the country.

Oh, right [sarcasm], "Mind If I." Those pesky school board members who volunteered their time to come up with a plan, and expect us average folks to be willing to volunteer a few fours of our time to educate ourselves before we vote - how dare they? I mean, how dare they expect us to care about our town as much as they do - the nerve! And, to think that people might actually give some input first - GASP!

Jane Doe: No, the current funding formula is NOT fair or equitable as it included only a portion of total education budgets. Also it mixes education with social services, which creates an imbalance in education funding.
.
There are rural & suburban schools who's enrollment is booming, but they are strangled by the 2% cap and they DO NOT get their fair share of funding.
.
COME to the event. LEARN how inequitable it really is. I don't have the stats at hand but Senator Doherty will be there and he does have all the facts and figures burned in his brain at this point.

Many of us "schools" do have plans on how to finance technology purchases for the future. And iPads are NOT replacing costs of textbooks. The textbook companies charge just as much for an electronic license as a printed copy. And yes, we have to follow licensing laws. Textbook companies are not joining the technology world as fast as people would like.

There are a lot less "Taj Mahal" schools than ones in need of updating.

M Brodeur.. Of course the roll out of education delivery via new technology is rare. It's NEW. Change takes time. Little of what we have now did we even have in the year 2000.
.
All new things have their initial flaws. I've yet to see a perfect system roll out and I did it for 30+ years, computer systems, manufacturing systems, inventory systems, personnel systems, accounting systems.. All always have bugs left to work out.
.
Those who expect perfection are constantly disappointed. Those who seek progress, accept a lack of perfection as simply part of the path to success. Knowing, that as bug's become apparent, they can be fixed.
.
To await perfection is to stay static and have no progress at all. (grin)

Joe R: Hate to burst your bubble but I've been Libertarian forever. (grin) REAL libertarians are fiscally conservative and socially liberal. As a free market model where the customer chooses the vendor is a very Libertarian concept, school choice is the right way to go.
.
Libertarians are NOT about there being no taxes at all or no government services at all. That is a very extreme viewpoint shared by few. Balance, dude, balance. Like the old adage says "everything in moderation", not excess.
.
Libertarians are all about choices...

Joe R...No, but what I do see is a lot of second grade teachers and administrators bullying kids on a daily basis. They like who they like and everyone else they bully.

Opinionated: I agree with most of what you say, but it's not Christie that needs to grow a spine. Any Governor with an opposition controlled legislature is powerless to change statute or institute the constitutional changes necessary to alter NJSC membership from selection to election.
.
Before we can change the status quo we need to change the balance of power in the legislature by EMPOWERING the candidates who support such changes by seeing they are elected.
.
The Governor can't even get Sweeney/Oliver to put OSA (opportunity scholarship act) up for a vote. THEY are in a position of power to block any reform. If they had a veto override level of majority, then Christie wouldn't even be able to stop anything.
.
Now the Governor can veto bad bills but he cannot get GOOD bills passed. Stalemate. It's up to the public to get crack'n this election cycle and hold the candidates accountable (whatever party).

Hi Teach: You sound like a stellar example of what a good teacher should be. You are happy in your particular institutional environment, and that's fine. It's only folk way out on the fringe that think tenure should be completely eliminated.. Don't worry about that.
.
The changes needed in tenure are based on ensuring those who do have tenure who've lost competence and begin to fail (for whatever reason) can be removed. With due cause, and ONLY due cause... not one grumbling parent.
.
Balance... too much protection and the failures are untouchable, too little and good teachers like you are put at risk. It's unfortunate some believe in all or nothing, life is not black and white, but shades of gray.
.
BUT... don't you think that other teachers, who WANT to open their own schools and teach should be paid for their efforts? Don't you think that if a teacher attracts and keeps a class of private students she (or he) shouldn't be eligible to receive that child's Tuition Allowance?
.
It's not YOUR fault, Teach. Those who say so are pretty block headed IMHO (grin). But, don't doubt you have peers who DO push religious (atheism) agenda. Or teachers like the one having her kids singing "Barrack Hussein Obama emm emm emm" who are into political indoctrination.
.
Just because YOU are a stellar example of a great teacher does not mean every teacher is up to your caliber of performance. This you know..

Well, You don't give the rest of us the knowledge or privilege of knowing where you actually teach or who you are? I can understand why? Everyone wants to be protected themselves as well as I do of the back lash they might get in saying something when something is wrong. From my own personal experience it was the exact opposite of your position. Most of the administrators, teachers were brutal, lazy, worthless, bad mouthing, used bullying tactics, nasty unkind people I ever meet and had to deal with. I had many different jobs and it had to be the worse. Everything is fine in the schools as long as you look the other way or you agree with them. If you don't you will be ostracized and that is the truth.

I apologize for all my typos (wants to protect themselves as well as I do)

Also Joe.. I never said charter school don't have their fair share of folk trying to stuff their world view down kid's throats. OR that some charters don't stink.
.
Changing the funding model to Per/Child Tuition Allowance distributed on the state level has nothing to do with the spurious argument of which type of school is best. NEITHER charter or public is BEST for every child. DUH
.
All schools, the taxpayer, the children, AND the teachers will benefit from a fair and equitable funding methodology. It's up to the parent to choose which environment they prefer for their child... THAT is the point. And that competition, be it for profit or not for profit, be it in school, the work place, the play ground, or anywhere is the driver of excellence.
.
Are you against excellence?

Robert: That is absolutely outstanding work you've done. Wow.. Thank you. I think a 30 year summary might be advantageous. Folk deal with 30 year mortgages. Just thought.. Would be nice to see public/private side by side vs over/under with difference column (% & $#) where you have 1-child 2-children, etc. stats.
.
Really Cool Robert... way to go.

Robert,I've known many people who do research on the school system before they move into the district.Seems smart.Much better than whining that then schools are sub-par afterwards.

@marylou, I would agree to a certain extent that some folks may move into a school system only to whine about it later. You can never satisfy anyone and I'm sure the habitual whiners would probably whine regardless of what school they send their children to but you are missing my larger point regarding school choice.

The issue I have is the confiscatory taxation utilized to prop up the public schools, no matter where you go you can't avoid it. Where I want to live should NOT be tied to the school system I lay out money for and if someone doesn't have any kids why should they pay a single dime to any school district.

I am not arguing that such-and-such a school is better than another, that private is better than public, charter better than private, or public better than either, they all have their good and bad. My problem is the funding mechanism, it should solely be at my discretion where my household's education funds get directed and that includes public schools which should be tuition based.

With the current model I will never receive educational services from the public school system that come anywhere near the amount of money I pump into the system over my property tax paying lifetime. It is much more economical for me to send all my kids to private school than the slow bleed over time public school taxes siphon out of my household.

That's great and I can understand that. If you are going to give a job out at least give it to someone who has the highest credentials, especially when it comes to the community kids...just don't give out jobs to your unqualified friends. Yes, people in private sectors and big companies hires friends and family who are going to work with skills. You just can't afford to hire losers who don't do anything. They will be losing their job real quick weather someone knows them or not. Most private companies don't have tenured where they keep their job no matter what.

Really: Granted. I concur. That's why performance measurement is important in any workplace, public or private. You can give a referred party a try, but if they aren't up to snuff you replace 'em. <G>

Hey Joe R: There are some like that, true. But you are thinking in absolutes, which never exist. It's like saying all Democrats are socialists.. not true, some are, some aren't.
.
There is nothing NEW under the sun, you know. We humans just repeat ourselves, in different words, different times, same concepts. There aren't all that many concepts actually. Freedom, slavery, democracy, totalitarianism, etc.. We just recycle them throughout history. The old Greek philosophers pretty much pinned them all down. LOL
.
In all things there are extremes in both directions, then there is the non-extreme. Left - Right - Center. There are always folk who are less than wise and go for extremes, but the smart folk recognize a more moderate centrist philosophy fits humanity best.
.
Social Darwinism is an interesting concept.. all it really means is people will do what they want anyway, find their own level in the great mass of humanity as meets their needs and abilities.
.
No one with a brain wants unlimited greed, selfishness, and totally unregulated robber baron capitalism. Read philosophy, it's interesting and enlightening.
.
When you speak of political parties, a lot of Americans have lost faith in both of the Big-2, so they seek something more realistic than extremism.
.
You can't paint everyone with the same brush of generalizations, Joe. It's not realistic. What you see is always just the tip of the iceberg.

And progressive authortarian libralism is not a cult, they are not true believers????

Amen. Unfortunately, some anti-religion folks are so rabid and irrational, that they would leave society in a moral vacuum rather than acknowledge the wisdom enshrined in religious doctrine. Only, there is no such thing as a moral vacuum. Expel the good, and in rushes the bad.

Monk: As you sow, so shall you reap. <grin> You sow the 7-sins and you reap chaos and depravity. History abounds with examples.. Rome comes to mind.

You most be kidding right...Poorly performing students. Who's fault is that? There is so much more cheating going on in the schools today. Public School's cheat to make their students look better than they are. Who's fault is that?

YOU must be kidding....American parents have raised the white flag and turned over teaching of everything to teachers. If you again read my posts...something you must not be good at...you will see that there are bad teachers that need to be fired and this must be done...but to not blame anything on the student absent 40 times a year, with zeroes on all of their homework, or with numerous cuts in a class is just plain stupid or naive...which are you?

chtulu2000, Neither...you must be another whining administrator or teacher. Schools are a big scamming business. Those who don't show up, then fail them..those who don't do their homework give zeros, those who cheat, give them a zero and suspend them...oh the school will not do it because they usually play sports that are the star players...will not do that. Stop inflating grades or curving tests. The schools are cheating and not following their own school rules. Who's fault is that. The kid or parent has no control on what the school choose to do. Who is allowing these poorly performing students get away with they do. When you have H.S. kids saying they were given grades that they really did not deserve knowing it is wrong. What teenage H.S. kid is not going to take something that is given to them so freely. I think you are the one who is naive and really don't know what is truly going on. Lets get rid of all the superintendents and incompetent principals first. They are the ones with all the power.

So you are naive...You live in a fantasy world where the blame lies only on the educator...AND again, apparently you cannot read, since I agree with your point about getting rid of bad teachers...you should try thinking once in awhile. You must be the parent of a failure who did not raise a good kid and now blames the system, instead of yourself? Is that it?

chtulu2000....You sound really stupid!

SAVE, how do you account for the states with no teacher's unions having the worst schools, then?

Jane Doe: there are more variables than just union vs non-union associated with school performance. No ONE variable determines excellence or failure. Also, I don't recall anyone saying there should be no unions. Some trade unions have very nice models for employee support, the electrical workers in particular.
.
You also didn't here me say anything about no unions. Funding public schools on a transferable per/child tuition allowance basis has nothing to do with union vs non-union. It simply caps a school's overall public contribution to the sum of enrollees allowances.
.
School administration then must work within that financial constraint. Unions must also recognize the cap applies to employee overhead expenses. All entities need financial limits, that limit is available revenue. You can't spend more than you have.

She has offered no answer as to why, if we changed the entire funding process, we can't restrict the credits she suggests only go to public schools. She has offered no reason why they should go to private, unaccountable failed voucher mills and quasi-private, graft-machine charters.

Jane Doe: The "whys" were stated, educational liberty = happy people. Children who fail to thrive in any school need options. Taxpayers need relief from overspending. The poor in any town should NOT be taxed for fancy fluff in school construction or football fields astro-turf.
.
And YES if we change the funding process we can EASILY control which schools are eligible to receive state tuition allowances. There is no reason WHY-NOT to include private schools as eligible.
.
My daughter went to private school, they did a fine job. Was also Catholic school but we are not Catholic, nor were many other children there. Contrary to liberal opinion, Catholic schools do not stuff religion down kids's throats. 3-12 she went and she's not in a Nun's habit <grin>.

Leave it up to the parents where they want to send "THEIR CHILDREN" to school.

Jane: Besides that unions protect themselves more than the students, many teachers (my relative being one of them) hate the unions because they impede the schools from performing the best that they can.
In regard to the point that you say that some schools underperform even though they are not unionized, I would argue they would be even worse off if not for the fact that they are non union. There are other variables too why schools underperform and the point that I was making was that the unions are one of the main reasons that holds a school back from improving!!!

Joe is obviously a union hack. He's just protecting his bread and butter. Public schools can't stand competition, which is why they need a government monopoly. If they didn't have a compulsory clientele, they'd cease to exist. No parent would keep their kid in a public school if they had a better alternative.

I agree with Joe
If ya hate unions feel free to work at a non union school for half the money no pension and less benefits.
If you are a republicons and hate unions yes that would make you a hypocrite
If you work at the unionized power plant and youre a republicon you are a hypocrites
Fema is immoral End All Foreign Aid

@Frankieand all the other names you use, you are a hypocrite because you don't have a job and haven't worked in years.

All SMART people have unions or Associations that they belong to for the betterment of the entire group. To name just a few: The Manufacturers Assoc., The Lumberman's Association, The Trial Lawyers Assoc., The American Medical Association, The Cattleman's Association, The Dairyman's Association, The Realtor's Association and these Corporate Associations pay dues and they make $$ Billions of dollars in campaign contributions and spend billions more on lobbying costs each year to get what they want. . All SMART people have unions or associations and all Dummies do not.

What we have is a bunch of people here that are posting messages that are a display of their Ignorance on this issue (By the way ignorance means 'lack of knowledge" just in case you did not know). The Private Charter schools actually pay their teachers HIGHER wages to attract good teachers "away from the Public Schools". The Charter schools do not grow their own special superior teachers on trees or create their own teachers in test tubes. When the Charter schools have open enrollments and they do not 'Hand Pick' the students that they allow to enroll __there is no difference in child performance. The only times the Private Charter schools out-perform the Public Schools is when they Hand Pick which students they allow to enroll and only accept children that are already performing 'above average'.

Sal, Well said. Peer Pressure is a powerful motivator. According to Maslow <father of modern sociology> being a "member of a group" (accepted, recognized, & status) are THE #2-3 & 4 human motivators. Safety/Shelter - #1.
.
To keep my daughter in line all I had to do was threaten to come to school in a Barney costume. <grin> That big purple dinosaur. Just the THOUGHT of being embarrassed in front of her school mates was enough. LOL
.
All HUMANS, little one or big ones, function according to motivations for acceptance from the society they live in. When it's acceptable to walk around with pants around knees, that is what they do, or purple hair, or piercings. OR how they behave in educational environments.
.
It's up to ADULTS to set the level's of acceptable behavior and teach it to the kids. That DUNCE CAP worked! It worked to straighten kids out, like the chair in the hall for "time out". Embarrass the tikes and they straighten up real fast..